The Sterling Affairs: Lets Talk Clipped Episode Five
Clifton Davis (Elgin Baylor): You think you’re over wanting another title? (BASKETBALL BOUNCE)
Laurence Fishburne (Doc Rivers): No. I want one bad. But some days I wish I’d have been like you through this. (LAUGH) Look, I wanted to win in spite of Donald, overcome. But we couldn’t. Maybe we shoulda boycotted. Maybe we shoulda shown people that we were hit too hard to play.
Ramona Shelburne: Hi, I’m Ramona Shelburne, and you’re listening to Let’s Talk Clipped. Today we’re talking about the sixth and final episode of Clipped, Keep Smiling. In this episode Shelly looks for a buyer for the Clippers, Donald takes Shelley to court, V. makes her last stand, and Doc and the players try to process the end of their season. Our guests today are returning from our very first episode to help us wrap this all up, showrunner Gina Welch and producer Rembert Browne, who actually wrote this episode together. Gina and Rembert, welcome back to the show.
Rembert Browne: Hey Ramona Shelburne.
Gina Welch: Hi Ramona. We have reached the end of the road. The final episode has now aired.
Ramona Shelburne: Your show, Gina Welch, Rembert Browne, is a wrap.
Rembert Browne: It’s cool.
Ramona Shelburne: How’s that feel?
Gina Welch: Well, we’ve had many wraps. (LAUGHTER) No, it feels great to have it– you know, have it out there for people to receive and enjoy. It’s awesome.
Rembert Browne: Yeah, I think making something is very exciting and nerve-racking, and, you know, you hope people like it but you also, like, stand by the thing you made. So to get to the end it’s very– it feels great. It just feels great.
Gina Welch: I mean, one thing I’ll say about it ’cause, like, when you actually finish post-production on the show everybody you talk to is like, “How are you? How do (LAUGH) you feel?” And the truth is that making this show with the community of people who worked on it was so rewarding and I think we’re all so proud of it that, you know, we just let it go in the end. (UNINTEL) You know, that was the reward was makin’ the show together. It was great.
Ramona Shelburne: You know, I always feel really nostalgic when we get to the end of things. Like, I’ve been like that since I was a little kid and, like–
Rembert Browne: It’s like summer camp. It’s like the last day of summer camp. It’s like, “Oh,” like, that’s how I felt the last day we shot. You know, I was like, “Wow.” Like, I appreciate so many people, and I also– you know, being my first show, like, really understand how many people it takes to do this well and how much trust is required to do it well. So, yeah, it feels great.
Ramona Shelburne: Should we, like, pop a bottle or something–
Rembert Browne: Yeah–
Ramona Shelburne: I know you’ve done–
Rembert Browne: Yeah–
Ramona Shelburne: –that but, like, I don’t really know how to pop a bottle. I’m not–
Gina Welch: Well, Ramona, I have eight years of fine dining–
Ramona Shelburne: Hey–
Gina Welch: –waitress experience under my belt, and I would be– (LAUGH) I would love to tell you about our specials–
Ramona Shelburne: Tell me–
Rembert Browne: –while I (UNINTEL). Tonight we have– a glazed porcini mushroom–
Ramona Shelburne: Ooh–
Rembert Browne: Oh, yeah. (LAUGHTER) Oh, yeah–
Gina Welch: It’s actually been a while since I’ve done this, and I usually do it with a fine linen napkin–
Ramona Shelburne: Should I get outta the way–
Gina Welch: –over the top. No, ma’am. (LAUGH) You’re working with a professional right here–
Rembert Browne: Should we saber it–
Gina Welch: I’ve been out–
Rembert Browne: –in the studio–
Gina Welch: –of the game a little while (LAUGH) but–
Ramona Shelburne: Watch out, Rem.
Rembert Browne: Is there a sword? (LAUGHTER)
Gina Welch: Are you– where are you folks visiting from tonight? (LAUGHTER)
Ramona Shelburne: Wow. Whoo. (CHEERING)
Gina Welch: That usually doesn’t happen–
Ramona Shelburne: That (LAUGH)–
Gina Welch: Someone shook it.
Ramona Shelburne: Someone shook it.
Gina Welch: Someone shook–
Ramona Shelburne: We got some classes though. (LAUGH)
Gina Welch: I am–
Ramona Shelburne: This podcast will be a lot better if we all drink a little–
Gina Welch: –fully covered in champagne now–
Ramona Shelburne: Champagne now–
Rembert Browne: Can we get–
Gina Welch: –prosecco right now–
Rembert Browne: Can we get a napkin? (LAUGHTER) Maybe a towel. How– let’s not use your sweater.
Gina Welch: The amount of liquid that’s now on my shirt and pants. (LAUGH)
Ramona Shelburne: Is it really all over you–
Rembert Browne: Yes.
Ramona Shelburne: Can we get her, like– like, some–
Gina Welch: I’m never–
Ramona Shelburne: –napkins–
Gina Welch: –gonna–
Rembert Browne: Yeah. Well, like–
Gina Welch: I’m never gonna get a restaurant job again. (LAUGHTER)
Ramona Shelburne: By the way, you didn’t even shout-out your restaurant. What restaurant?
Gina Welch: I worked at Jardinière in San Francisco–
Ramona Shelburne: Oh–
Ramona Shelburne: Which is–
Gina Welch: We have a fake Jardinière in the show.
Ramona Shelburne: I know–
Gina Welch: That’s where–
Ramona Shelburne: That’s why that popped for me when you said it–
Gina Welch: –the Sterlings go to dinner.
Ramona Shelburne: All right. We’re gonna get some champagne here. Thanks, Rem.
Rembert Browne: Of course. (LAUGH) But this pouring is very, like, veteran.
Gina Welch: Cheers to you guys.
Rembert Browne: Cheers. Cheers.
Ramona Shelburne: Cheers
Gina Welch: Cheers–
Ramona Shelburne: Cheers.
Gina Welch: Cheers. Cheers.
Rembert Browne: There’s a plastic clank. Oh, yeah, let’s talk–
Ramona Shelburne: We’re drinkin’ on the job. Let’s go–
Rembert Browne: Let’s talk.
Ramona Shelburne: Let’s go. (LAUGH) All right, guys, how did it feel trying to make this last episode and wrap up all the storylines? Did you feel like every character got the ending they deserved?
Gina Welch: Well, there was a storytelling challenge in this episode, which is that the tonnage of story for the sterlings was huge and the– the amount of story that we had for Doc and for the Clippers was sort of– there was less story available. So we had to sorta manipulate the timelines a little bit in order to make that work.
And then we also decided in the writers’ room to make a choice that we had to sort of fight for again and again, which was to hold V. out of view because we wanted the show to capture the feeling that happened in the real world, which is that basically V.’s 15 minutes was over and that our other characters had forgotten about her.
So what we were encountering when we were getting notes from producers and from the network was, “We miss her. We miss her.” And we were all like, “That’s the point,” you know? You really have this emotional connection to that character and you wanna get back with her.
And I think the thing that was really important to us in the finale after the sort of false happy ending of episode five was to really live into what was happening after the sort of media firestorm around the tape moved on and the story became about power reasserting itself and what that felt like for the characters on whom this happy ending had been stuck.
Rembert Browne: Yeah. I love the way we ended it. I think– you know, ending it with Doc and Elgin was something that we didn’t wanna lose and had lots of conversations about– ’cause I– I think in order to understand the story, even though Elgin is not one of our lead characters, like, his presence is so important to understand Doc, to understand these other Black players and what they were wrestling with. So just to end the show with that, Elgin, someone who had been reluctant to even come back to the court, you know, this place was like– a curse– hung over him. But, yeah, just to see Doc at the end, he’s still tryin’ to figure it out.
Laurence Fishburne (Doc Rivers): But I’m– I’m lookin’ beyond all this now, Elgin. I’m lookin’.
Clifton Davis (Elgin Baylor): Well, this world will hit you again, and you’re still young enough to hit back. (BASKETBALL BOUNCING)
Laurence Fishburne (Doc Rivers): You showin’ off now.
Clifton Davis (Elgin Baylor): I need to shoot till it sounds right. (BANG)
Rembert Browne: Shh. (LAUGH) Dark.
Gina Welch: And by the way, we worked on the exact timing of that cut to black and the swish for quite some time.
Ramona Shelburne: This episode was co-written by Rembert Browne and Gina Welch. How was that collaboration?
Gina Welch: It was awesome.
Rembert Browne: It was great. I felt really fortunate to have a partner in this. I felt like, just as an individual, my writing improved over the course of the year and a half that– you know, from the writers’ room to actually working on the episode. So in terms of, like, when I watch it now, like, I feel a lot of myself in the things that a lotta these characters are saying.
Rembert Browne: And, you know, I love working with Gina. Like, I really– I really valued just, like, the entire experience but actually, like, digging in, working through notes, it’s– it– it’s why I– I write. I like to– I like to work on it and work and work and work. So I loved it.
Gina Welch: Yeah. And we were really lucky to be writing the finale as we were shooting, which was– pretty punishing– just because the demands of production were intense. But what was great about it was that we were also responding to what we were seeing between the characters and we were writing toward things we were getting from the actors.
Gina Welch: But there were always things in that episode that belonged to Rem that he found in the room. So we had had a problem in the room in terms of figuring out, like, what is the right place to leave the players after, you know, this devastating loss? Do you wanna leave it hanging there?
J. Alphonse Nicholson (Chris Paul): If we hadn’t had played, if we had shut everything down, maybe we coulda made it more than about Donald.
Laurence Fishburne (Doc Rivers): We made the best possible decision in impossible circumstances.
J. Alphonse Nicholson (Chris Paul): Doc, I wish you would let us stay mad.
Gina Welch: And we worked on that scene between Chris and Doc and sort of imagined trying to tell the story of a generational shift and trying to tell the story of what’s gonna happen in the subsequent year, where sort of the player empowerment era comes about.
Gina Welch: But we felt like we needed some moment of reflection and hope with the players too. And Rem was like, “Well, Jamal Crawford had, like, a bachelor party that summer and, like, all the guys were there, and, like, (LAUGHTER) you know, and they did a midnight game in Seattle.”
Male Speaker: This don’t look like a strip club to me–
Male Speaker: Yeah, is this a high school? (LAUGH)
Male Speaker: What are all these little hoopers doin’ here?
Male Speaker: Man, you want us to play drunk?
Male Speaker: Hey, it’s a midnight game. Sober up for the young impressionable children, fellas.
Gina Welch: What was so great when we were going through the post-production process we brought in all of the actors who played players to come and do ADR for that scene, and so they all got to see it. And it was like that scene meant so much to those actors. Like, I think they really felt like it was the perfect end point for them as a crew. And it just wouldn’t have been there without Rem. I mean, he sorta found that moment.
Ramona Shelburne: I think one of the most powerful scenes in the final episode is between Doc and LeVar, where they trade stories about the reminders of racism in their homes. For Doc, it’s Muhammad Ali’s gloves that were saved from his house that was burnt down in a hate crime. And for LeVar, it’s the chains he wore when he was filming Roots.
LeVar Burton: I keep my chains on the wall in the living room. I want my guests to know, while I am unquestionably their friend, I am also absolutely filled with rage.
Ramona Shelburne: Is the story about the chains on LeVar Burton’s mantle true?
Gina Welch: Yeah.
Rembert Browne: Yeah.
Ramona Shelburne: Whoa. (LAUGH)
Rembert Browne: Real story. That– that’s like– this is, like, LeVar Burton. Like, this is, like, real LeVar. Like–
Gina Welch: And he also– (LAUGH) I mean, he’s–
Ramona Shelburne: Wow–
Gina Welch: –funny about it, you know?
Rembert Browne: I mean, this is true for the whole show but especially in the moments we get Doc and LeVar, but as we were coming up with it and then once we saw it when we were shooting this thing, like, I couldn’t stop thinking about there’s not a ton of examples of just, like, having two Black people talk to each other about what it’s like to be Black.
You know, a lotta times it’s like one Black person explaining it, you know, to the masses. But to– to see the dialogue and to just watch how they were bouncing off of each other and that’s just, like, a real conversation that I think we were really privileged– like, it was helpful that Laurence Fishburne and LeVar, like, really see each other as peers, you know?
And they– they– the– the amount of respect outside of the role I really feel like came through in the way that they, like, really created magic every time they were together. There would be moments when I was, like, watching the two of them and probably more than everything it– it felt, like, very overwhelming to me.
I’m like, “I can’t believe that LeVar Burton and Laurence Fishburne are– are doing this.” And it feels really beautiful, especially, like, LeVar leaning in and being the rawest that the public has ever heard him talk. And it’s not like LeVar as playing someone else. This is, like, we’re getting LeVar Burton’s, like, testimony in this throughout the show, which I love.
Ramona Shelburne: Talk to us about the decision to show LeVar and Doc’s rage throughout that scene, which is a pretty quiet scene but you feel their rage.
Gina Welch: You know, when I first had a meeting with LeVar about the show, and at that point I think he’d read the first two scripts– he told me that he would do the show as long as he could talk about his rage.
LeVar Burton: Once I read Go the Fuck to Sleep for charity.
Laurence Fishburne (Doc Rivers): Yeah.
LeVar Burton: One of my brand partners dropped me.
Laurence Fishburne (Doc Rivers): What, you can’t even say fuck?
LeVar Burton: I can but there are consequences. I said fuck. I lost money.
Laurence Fishburne (Doc Rivers): Shit.
LeVar Burton: If I showed how angry I really am– but I’m not gonna hide it.
Gina Welch: The fact that he had rage that he never figured out how to show, you know, in any of his sort of public personae that he felt like he needed to. And I was like, “Yeah, that’s part of the show,” and– and it’s revelatory. And I think the reason that we decided to use that story that Doc tells about the hate crime and the fire that burned down his family home, which is a story he’s told in the press and, you know, a story that he shared when we interviewed him, is to me that story and Doc’s responses to it, that he wanted his home leveled to a white slab before his family came home and he wanted to move on.
He did not wanna go after the arsonists. To me that choice makes legible what he is tryin’ to do with the team when the Sterling tape comes out, which is, “Let’s just try to keep our heads down and get through this and then prove that it could not slow us down,” you know?
Laurence Fishburne (Doc Rivers): When Donald’s tape first came out I felt like, “Let’s move on. Don’t look back. Don’t get dragged down by shit that you can’t change.” I did not want us to stay angry.
Gina Welch: So, to me, that’s why that conversation belongs there and the storytelling that LeVar does in response to that is like, “No, you need to put your chains on the wall,” (LAUGH) you know?
Rembert Browne: Yeah. I also think the– you know, LeVar getting into that idea of, like, people thinking that he’s safe is, like, a really interesting thing to come out of this show. It’s, like, people think of you one way and they don’t ever want you to show a different side ’cause they fell in love with this version of you.
So, “How dare you betray us,” like, that’s what LeVar is getting off of his chest. Like, there are so many things that are so much bigger than basketball. I– I– I know people who just, you know, work in every industry who have felt the moment they decide to speak up suddenly they’re out of the inner circle. Like, they don’t get the– the same stuff anymore ’cause people are like, “Oh, you’re a radical, blah, blah, blah.” There’s so much about that scene that I– really happy that we got out.
Ramona Shelburne: another scene with Doc where you get to feel a bit of his rage or his feelings towards the Sterlings or the situation he’s just lived through and that’s when Doc and his son confront Shelly after lunch about how she seemed to emerge from the scandal even better off.
Laurence Fishburne (Doc Rivers): Well, I was lookin’ at our financials. You still have 12 tickets for every game, VIP passes, free food, free parking. If we win a title, you get three championship rings. Why three I have no fuckin’ idea. You are officially the team’s number one fan, and that’s codified in your deal. And you and Donald still own our practice space, which means you’ll probably just keep takin’ our rent money.
Ramona Shelburne: What went into planning that scene, and why is it so important?
Gina Welch: That was sort of a fictionalized moment. That– you know, that confrontation didn’t happen. But it felt like in our conversations with Doc that that was sort of an element of how he sort of felt about the math that all got worked out after the scandal.
And we felt, just in terms of Doc’s character journey in the show, that it was really important to give the satisfaction of hearing him say it all, you know, and to have, you know, that confrontation with Shelly, especially after episode three when she was coming to the stadium.
He’s like, “She hasn’t done anything wrong. Be nice to her. She’s going through a hard time.” And then she shows up on the team bus. Narratively, we really felt like we needed some justice for his character in that confrontation and– and for it to be kind of a plain statement of fact. “This is all that you got, you know, out of the deal. So you didn’t really give it up, you know?”
Rembert Browne: And to say it in front of his son. That adds, like, an extra element. Like, comparing that– you know, Doc and Chris almost have, like, a father/son-ish moment, where it’s like, “I look up to you, like, blah, blah, blah.” Like, to see him actually do that in front of his son, it felt like it– it– it helped Doc, like, stand up a little bit more straight as he goes into whatever comes next.
Ramona Shelburne: So one of the more powerful scenes is when Justine goes to Shelly and says she’s disappointed that she’s not getting divorced after all this ’cause that was sort of the basis of their relationship and their friendship.
Harriet Harris (Justine): All these years I– I’ve thought that maybe you had Stockholm Syndrome because you married Donald so young. I thought maybe you were serious when you were waving your divorce papers at Barbara Walters. I mean, no one would possibly do that as a stunt. I thought maybe you were finally waking up. But you were never asleep. And you’re not divorcing Donald. (LAUGH) You two were made for each other.
Ramona Shelburne: She seems kinda like a conduit for the audience in the way she expresses her feelings towards that. How did you think about her character while you were writing her?
Gina Welch: Well, we always imagined Justine– and this was the great thing about that actress, Harriet (SIGH) Sampson Harris, who’s been a character–
Ramona Shelburne: So good–
Gina Welch: –actor–
Rembert Browne: She’s incredible–
Gina Welch: –forever. I mean, she showed up to set with, like, a full character history for Justine. (LAUGH) She’s like, “She has gotten her Ph.D. in art history but she doesn’t use it.” (LAUGHTER) And, you know, and I was like, “Wow, you’ve really gone deep.”
And she said, “You know, I never know when I come to set if I’m gonna have someone to talk to about my character and so I always do a lot of character work before I arrive.” And what we had thought of for Justine– I mean, I think her character description in parentheticals in the script was, “A little bit psychic,” in quotes. (LAUGH)
And so we sort of imagined her as someone who was probably had– a life that looked a lot like Shelly’s life until her divorce. And after her divorce she stayed single. She had no money. She decided to make jewelry. But we wanted her to feel like sort of a slightly new-age Malibu woman who still hung out with a pretty conservative crowd.
And I think her character really wants to believe that Shelly is on the cusp of making the kind of life change that she made herself and that she sees in Shelly a woman who has put up with a lotta shit for a really long time and who has tried to cover for her husband but who is not similar to him.
Rembert Browne: You know, I love what she said. Once Doc leaves she gets that last jab.
Laurence Fishburne (Doc Rivers): Nice to meet you, Justine. Come on, son. (SIGH)
Harriet Harris (Justine): You don’t own him.
Rembert Browne: That also feels like– a powerful moment for Justine then who’s kinda been this, like, side-kicky character the whole show.
Ramona Shelburne: Okay. So what– we– we do eventually get to see a bit more of Miss Stiviano.
Rembert Browne: Yes.
Ramona Shelburne: Because V. and the Sterlings go to court over the gifts that Donald gave her. She is wearing a light pink pant suit. How does this look differ from the V. we met in the beginning of the series?
Gina Welch: Oh, well, it’s such a transformation. You know, Kate Adair, our costume designer, did such a beautiful job of both, you know, matching the real-life looks but also sorta bringing in all of these great details and tailoring them for Cleo. And we have this naturally occurring character arc in what V. was actually wearing through this period, where in the pilot and the second episode she’s looking for any kind of attention.
Maybe she’s looking for negative attention. You know, it’s a lot of reds and greens, a lotta flash. And then toward the end of the show with the white pant suit and the pink suit there’s a softness and an innocence and a femininity that comes in.
But what I sort of love in that scene where she has to get stopped as she’s coming into court is we’ve got the same white Hermès handbag that (LAUGHTER) she’s showing off in front of Shelly in the pilot. The white Hermès handbag. It travels across the entire character arc.
Ramona Shelburne: I didn’t even catch that until you just said it. So the courtroom scene I think is electric, the way you guys wrote this. V.’s watching Shelly hold Donald’s hand in slow motion and knowing right then it was already over. How did you give this scene the emotional punch that it has?
Gina Welch: Well, it’s interesting because when we wrote this script we didn’t actually intend to shoot the scene in court because I think for us just the image of the Sterlings holding hands told the story. And, you know, as you know, Ramona, the actual proceedings in court are much more complicated and insane.
But what I think felt right to us was to essentialize that moment down to V. telling the courtroom, “I worked for him,” which is what we’ve seen. It’s a weird job. I mean, it’s a weird job. But she did work for him. She waited for him outside the dentist’s office. She talks to the fuckin’ Red Bull guy. She works for him–
Rembert Browne: She works for him.
Gina Welch: And for the Sterlings to say, “She’s a grifter,” which was the essence of what was going on in court.
Male Speaker (Unidentified): Because in Mr. Sterling’s sworn deposition he says, and I quote, “The cars are mine. I put them in her name because of her criminal record.” I quote, “She was an indigent on welfare. If she killed somebody I didn’t want to be liable.”
Gina Welch: So we really boiled it down to that moment and the betrayal and the racist stereotyping of Donald submitting a statement saying, “She was an indigent on welfare, and if she hit somebody, I didn’t wanna be liable, which is why I put the cars in her name.” So that final turn, where he and Shelly and Pierce have sort of conspired to put this racist stereotype of her on the record in order to reclaim her things felt to me like the important moment to nail in the courtroom.
Rembert Browne: Yeah. We’ve seen Donald be nasty the whole show, but maybe it’s from where we see V. in the beginning of that scene, where, like, she’s got her outfit on and she doesn’t think Donald’s coming. Like, once you see him you kinda get the feeling of where it’s going.
But to hear him say that, which kind of tracks from racist nasty things he’s said about other women who he’s been in court with over the years, it’s, like, a clear conspiracy. It’s like, “Well, this is how we keep our power.” In some ways you’ll do anything. Like, that– that’s kinda what we get from the Sterlings.
Ramona Shelburne: Okay. The other scene (and– and this is an incredible ending that you wrote for Donald), and this incredible bit of time, the Ferguson protests were happening at the same time the NBA had to confront racism. Tell us about the decision to have Donald Sterling, played by Ed O’Neill, sunbathing naked while reading about that? What does that scene say about Donald’s view of the world?
Rembert Browne: Well, first it says Ed is game. (LAUGHTER) Like, that’s, like, the–
Gina Welch: Yeah, we could just pause for a moment–
Rembert Browne: Yeah, like, before we get into–
Gina Welch: –before we get to Ferguson–
Rembert Browne: –Ferguson. (LAUGHTER)
Gina Welch: Yeah, I think he just was so game. Yeah. So– anyway, I think one of the things that we really wrestled with for a long time was obviously this is a story about an Obama era racial reckoning. And toward the end of the show we’re headed into the summer where Michael Brown was murdered and the summer where Eric Garner was murdered.
And so how could we have this show carry that without it feeling like glib or slight or like we weren’t trying to feel the full weight of that? Because really I think part of the function of indicating that we’re heading into that era is to say, “Well, this racial reckoning, what did it change, you know?” We were tryin’ to figure out a place to do it and to feel sort of the– the fires of it in The LA Times but to have the Sterlings basically use the paper to, you know– as– as sort of a sun guard felt about right.
Rembert Browne: Yeah, and, you know, Shelly giving the like, “Oh, that’s just, like, so terrible,” it feels so distant and so just, like, “That’s something happening over there,” which I think is how people in power often feel about, you know, the ills of the world.
“It has nothing to do with my life.” But, yeah, I– you know, I went to Ferguson and I covered it, and I remember (UNINTEL) coming up in newspapers. It was so in your face and so like, “If you don’t believe in it now, like, what else can we do?”
And, you know, there’s so much about the show that is, like– it’s about what happened in the moment but it’s also really showing where America’s headed. I think of 2013, which is the first year of Obama’s second term, as pretty much, like, as good as it got.
Like, we were post-recession. Obama was cooking. Everyone was happy. There were, like, rappers in the White House every week. It was just, like, a really fun, (LAUGHTER) happy time to be an American in some ways. And by 2014 all hell breaks loose, you know? And to think that we’ve kinda been in, like, 10 years of this, to have that image, it’s about what was happening then but also, like, giving– a glimpse into what’s coming next.
Ramona Shelburne: We have come to the end of the road, guys, the part where we get to reflect on the series as a whole, on the real-life events as a whole. And you, as the first authors of history, have probably thought about this a lot in what you want people to take from the show, whether it’s from Doc, from Shelly, from V., from the whole situation at large. What do you, Rembert, want viewers to think about and take from the series?
Rembert Browne: My answer would be, like, one of my own takeaways, like, something I’ve taken away from having my head in this world for a couple years is, like, the idea of, like, what’s the worst that can happen if you stand up against power and injustice, you know?
Like, I think something we get to at the end is this idea of Chris saying, “I wish you woulda let us stay mad,” this idea of Doc’s ideas like, “You can do all that but you gotta win.” But then if you don’t win, it falls very flat. And so, again, thinking about how a lot of the themes of this show apply to real life, I think that’s one of the takeaways that I would want someone to think about in terms of their own life is, like, I understand all the fear that comes (and some of that fear is reputational, some of that fear is maybe future access to things), but if you’re like, “Well, I wonder what happens if they just shut it down?
“Like, are– do they become exiled?” Like, probably not. It– what probably happens is a reckoning might have to happen. And some of the themes that we clearly cared about in the show, this idea of the struggle between wanting to stand up but also being really concerned about (LAUGH) your job and your reputation and all this other stuff is– is something that I think after watching the show some people will think about how they exist in their own lives.
It makes me really happy that that is somethin’ that came through because that’s something that I have spent my entire adulthood trying to find the balance of when is it time to say, “I don’t give a fuck.” So that’s something that I’m really proud of for the show of just, like– trying to unpack that and not really coming down on one side but just showing all the things that can happen from an incident like this.
Ramona Shelburne: I really love that answer.
Gina Welch: Me too. (LAUGH) I was like, “That was really good.”
Ramona Shelburne: Yeah, that’s really great.
Rembert Browne: Second champagne. (LAUGH)
Gina Welch: God, you just get better with champagne. (LAUGH) I get worse.
Rembert Browne: I said that at the top.
Gina Welch: You did? (LAUGH) Is there a point at which though you start to fall apart?
Rembert Browne: The end of two.
Gina Welch: Oh, the end of two–
Rembert Browne: Yeah, yeah. I’m in–
Rembert Browne: –the middle of two.
Ramona Shelburne: I get a little (LAUGH) burpy after a while.
Gina Welch: It’s a lotta bubbles. I actually can’t answer that question because I– I feel very profoundly that we put all of our ideas into the show and I can’t prescribe how any viewer feels about it. I want people to take it on the terms that they watch it, you know? And that’s– that’s what it’s made for. It’s made for people to disagree about it and really just to wanna talk to each other about it. I don’t have an answer for that.
Ramona Shelburne: I think Rem’s answer actually got me thinking about this idea that the show is a limited series, right? There’s six episodes. There’s a beginning. There’s whatever decision you wanna make about where it should end or what period of time it covers. But it really is a precursor to a reckoning that we have in the NBA and in the world– at large over–
Rembert Browne: An internet–
Ramona Shelburne: –the next–
Rembert Browne: –reckoning. Just, like– just, like, the power of– there’s so many things that were in kind of, like, infancy stages that soon after this just fully exploded. And I think this incident can sometimes get lost in all of the other racial power reckonings that happened.
But when you think about when it happened it’s very critical moment with regards to all of the things that kind of happened during that time period, especially in 2014 to 2016. I think a lotta the country thought we were past this and then we realized that we were just, like, back in it in a way that some people couldn’t believe.
And something that I think the show does well is like, “This is what 2014 was like. You know, this is how”– even down to just, like, how, you know, stuff traveled online and, you know, seeing the memes and stuff like that. Like, there’s so much about 2014 which was showing where we were headed.
Ramona Shelburne: I think 2014 and this story and scandal kind of represents one of these lines of demarcation for me. Wherever you wanna choose to start telling the history of the player empowerment era in the NBA, whether it’s the Miami Heat wearing the hoodies after Trayvon Martin, whether it’s this, whether it’s LeBron– you can go all the way back to 2010 and his decision.
You can start telling that story in any of those spots. But I think this is as good a place as any because I’ll never forget where I was when LeBron James steps in front of the microphone and says, “There’s no place for Donald Sterling in this league.”
That is a pretty profound statement and moment. And I think you guys do an incredible job of getting us to that point in the NBA but also in society. And I know it’s a limited series, but there’s a lot more story to tell that comes after this. And I think that’s why I’m happy we left off where it does because, oh, you never know. Maybe there’s more. (LAUGH) Gina, Rembert, thank you so much for all your time, your thoughts, your reflections–
Rembert Browne: Of course–
Ramona Shelburne: –and your great work on this.
Rembert Browne: Ramona, thank you.
Gina Welch: Thank you, Ramona. Thank you for all of your great reporting on the podcast and, you know, just making a show with us.
Narrator: This episode was hosted by Ramona Shelburne and produced by Meghan Coyle. Our associate producer is Gus Navarro. Our line producer is Cat Sankey. Sound design by Ryan Ross Smith and Sean Howard (PH) and original music by Hannis Brown. Preeti Varathan is our head of audio. Our head of development is Kati Fernandez. Our head of talent relations is Chantre Camack. Our executive producers for 30 for 30 and ESPN Films are Marsha Cooke, Brian Lockhart, Burke Magnus, and Heather Anderson. Our ESPN audio team includes Megan Judge and Devon McGowan. Special thanks to Roslyn Bibby at FX and Greg Bergman at ESPN LA Radio. As always, thank you for listening.
